Hatfield: My only response to this issue (at least in open forum)
To: all
Long and short of it, if we are not the ones directly involved, its NOYDBB (none of your dad-blamed business). So far, all I have is "this person said this" or "that person did thus-and-so." I'm not going to get into the details of what I may or may not know, because depending on who you're talking to, not all of it is relevant anyway!
My brother-in-Christ, Cyto expressed the opinion that Paul was admonishing the church to deal collectively with the sins of the body, and he made reference to 2nd Corinthians chapters 12 and 13. Having taken some time to prayerfully consider Paul's words there, I don't think this quite fits our present situation.
In those chapters, Paul is writing to the church at Corinth. Near the end of chapter 12 (at verse 21) Paul states "I am afraid that when I come again my God will humble me before you, and I will be grieved over many who have sinned earlier and have not repented of the impurity, sexual sin and debauchery in which they have indulged." Paul continues (chapter 13)"This will be my third visit to you. 'Every matter must be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.' 2 I already gave you a warning when I was with you the second time. I now repeat it while absent: On my return I will not spare those who sinned earlier or any of the others, ... 5 Examine yourselves to see whether you are in the faith; test yourselves. Do you not realize that Christ Jesus is in you--unless, of course, you fail the test? ... 10 "This is why I write these things when I am absent, that when I come I may not have to be harsh in my use of authority--the authority the Lord gave me for building you up, not for tearing you down."
Here I think Paul is speaking to the body collectively, what we are dealing with is an issue between individuals. If Cyto felt that AotC as a whole was in a sinful nature, these verses might prove relevant, but I don't think it is.
(and yes, I prefer the clarity if the NIV, you are welcomed to read 2Cor 12:21, 2cor 13:1-2, 5 and 10 here)
In the Gospel of Matthew 18:15-17, we read:
15 If your brother sins against you, go and show him his fault, just between the two of you. If he listens to you, you have won your brother over. 16 But if he will not listen, take one or two others along, so that 'every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.' 17 If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, treat him as you would a pagan or a tax collector.If we have a problem with our brother or sister, to go to them privately, and seek an end to your conflict. If you are able to resolve your issue this way, you have gained a soul for the Kingdom!
But, if you cannot resolve it this way, bring along a witness or two, someone to not only assist, but to be able to attest that you have indeed tried. Just my opinion THIS is about where Kal and the parties involved had been when others started creating the larger mess.
This is just my personal observation, but I feel that anyone OTHER than Kal, Gen, Quiran (and others directly involved ... meaning not ME) should let them work this whole thing out for themselves, because we are NOT involved.
We, being imperfect humans, are not qualified to pass judgement on the actions of others. And that is what is being done here. People are judging the actions of others without having the entire story of everything involved. Even if you had all the relevant information, if it is not happening to YOU, you still don't have the right to judge others.
Why is this bothering me so? I'll tell you why.
The witness that we are supposed to give those outside of the church is more than just coming up to them to tell them about Jesus. You can gladhand people all day and tell them about God's great and wonderful love and the sacrifice of Jesus on the cross ... But if you then turn around and start squabbling with your 'brothers' and 'sisters' and backbiting them about this or that matter, those outside the church who see this will think to themselves, "Who do those Christians think they are? They're no different than we are!"
You want proof of what I say? (sorry for using you as an example Molly) Molly has been around here in one form or another all the way back to when my wife and I first started playing here. "Miri" as she was known then, would take the two of us through Underdark leveling. Molly has not kept any secrets about her beliefs. She is not a Christian. Plainly, our actions of late haven't given her any reason to consider our message to be any better or different than any secular belief others may have. The result? A woman that I consider a close friend (as does my wife "Scarlett"), is deciding that maybe she doesn't need to be spending as much time here. How's that for a witness?
I close asking everyone who's not involved to BUTT OUT, and let Kal and the others work this issue out for themselves.
I support the decision Kal has made, because I don't know all that's involved and it is not my place to gainsay the choices that he has made. I do however also love my sister-in-Christ, Geneva and her family and it is my hope that she and Kal are able to work through their differences.
In Christ's blessing,
Ron